Curse

G4ymBoy · Aug 08, 2010, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Disagree. Energy might be more important but giving back health is a big booster for a class with 70 armor.

I agree having a bigger health boost would actually be nice.

Franksalot · Aug 08, 2010, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

I agree having a bigger health boost would actually be nice.

This just goes back to the mainstream view of "monks heal you hurt" that everyone seems to play, but don't get me started on that i'll rant for hours.

TBH though the health return isn't that import, i mean while it is important to be able to sustain yourself generally speaking you'll do better with enchantments up and not want them to be ending enough to gain any major healing from 0-16 heals.

I would rather they removed the extremely minor heals and make the energy return more effective in some way. But ideal they should both be balanced to a worthwhile lvl so you get dervish that like sins,wars or necro will generally always go into their primary attribute. After all other than the visual appearance thats the main reason for playing a different profession.

saint666 · Aug 08, 2010, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

It's unstrippable. VoS is not.
It adds damage. (this) VoS does not.
It activates on every attack. VoS does not.
It's non elite. VoS is not.

So what if you have to have another person in your party cast it on you? Are parties with more than one person really rare in high end PvE nowadays? And it's not whenever you want. It comes into effect whenever your attack skill successfully hits. Blind? No hit. Some kind of missing hex? No Hit. Blocking? No Hit. Also it's strippable...

GWD, only has 40% of kd, your VoS kd's 100% for 2 seconds each time on every time you swing your scythe or did you mean on attack skills? bad wording? Its on a 10 second recharge on a class with tons of cover enchantment. You think you're gunna get chilblains spammed every 10 seconds all the time? Again, GDW depends completely on the people you're playing with and sadly most pugs don't optimize their builds and you cant make them. Tell me as a melee how often do you actually get buffed with GDW when doing ZBs? I'm not the only one that thinks your version of VoS is broken and it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Abusing scythes you can deal around 100+ damage per 1.13 seconds (assuming you're using an IAS and proper buffs) to 3 foes in front of you. Over the course of 5 seconds that's at least 400 damage.

Also I'm not talking about the Dervish being able to deal hueg amounts of Scythe damage along with the AoE. Not like 500 damage from enchantments plus 100 from your scythe. Like 500 damage including the scythe damage. So more like you're dealing 500 to 3 foes and something like 200 to the rest. I dunno. This idea as of now is just an idea. I don't even have ideas for skills yet. But in any event the idea of huge damage in one instant rather than big damage attack spamming would at least differentiate the Dervish from everyone else.

Okay you were ambiguous with your wording, when you said 400-500 aoe i assumed you meant just that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Oh and when is something not destroying DoA with minimal effort?

before DWG buff how many people were in DoA, it's like Ursanway revived. You can literally take people with no experience what so ever and finish it. With the other builds you at least needed some experience and skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Yea but generally if your enchantment get stripped it's not just stripped. Generally after a big strip you now have degen, some conditions and lots of lost health. Then you have to wait 5 seconds to recast all these enchants...which will be getting stripped as you begin to recast them. Then you can get dazed which makes it even more difficult to recast. That in addition with general anti melee balances the shit out quite nicely if you ask me.

I've learned that if you charge in after the warrior or the minions you've become quite resistant against enchantment stripping. But if you want to play like a warrior and not mind agro then you should play one. if the enchantment casting time was reduce to 1/4 seconds Daze can't do much at all, not that you come across it often. 5 second recharge isn't that long at all, if people can get over restarting assassin combos every time it fails then people can get over 5 seconds recharge. If dervishes were immune to melee counters you'd end up with an aoe toucher minus lifesteal(mysticism heals you when enchantments end doesn't it?) with unlimited energy.

Haligator · Aug 08, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Wow. One page of this thread was on topic and the rest just speculation. To answer the original question, the text of the developer post clearly states that neither Scythes nor Dervishes will receive nerfs or buffs in any way in the Mesmer patch, or whatever it is that they are working on. This looks like a troll thread to me. The OP quote left out the "NOT" in the phrase he quoted.

End · Aug 08, 2010, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haligator

Wow. One page of this thread was on topic and the rest just speculation. To answer the original question, the text of the developer post clearly states that neither Scythes nor Dervishes will receive nerfs or buffs in any way in the Mesmer patch, or whatever it is that they are working on. This looks like a troll thread to me. The OP quote left out the "NOT" in the phrase he quoted.

Ok shall we make note that...They announced future changes to dervishs (if I remember properly the changes are in the works)...The mesmer update is done...

The question here is about them mentioning changes to scythes which was previously unmentioned. And does this mean that scythes will be changed with the upcoming Dervish update...I'll forgive you today because your new...but please...do research on whats being said if it seems weird...

NerfHerder · Aug 09, 2010, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, once again, we have to go to another thing the dervish really needs: Better IAS! Make HoF maintainable!

I agree. Its not only the critical hits, its also the easily maintainable IAS from critical agility. Just a thought, if Avatars where made almost/maintainable in PvE only. Then Eternal Aura could be turned into a maintainable +33% IAS for Dervs, it would even fit the name. Ive often found in general PvE a non-ZV build Dervish with +33% IAS and a zealous scythe doesnt really have energy trouble, but when the IAS goes so does the energy needed for sustained damage. This is a broad generalization of my own xp in game, I havent vigorously vetted it, (unless master of damage counts as well :P)

As for Sin Vs Derv, I dont mind if the Sin can do ALMOST as much damage with a scythe. But it would be nice if there was a clear victor.

saint666 · Aug 09, 2010, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Some ideas for a dervish bar with skill balances.

Mysticism - For ranks in Mysticism gain energy whenever an enchantment on you cast by you ends, you gain 2 energy at ranks 4 and above, 4 energy at ranks 7 and above, 6 energy at 10 ranks above, and 8 energy at ranks 13 and above. In PvE, each rank of Mysticism decreases the recharge time for your Dervish enchantments by 4% (maximum 50%).

Asuran Scan

Wounding Strike
Scythe Mastery
Elite Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
4s recharge

If this attack hits, target foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...17 seconds. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchant was removed this way you do +5...20 damage and target foe also suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.

Pious Assault
scythe mastery
Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
12s recharge

You deal +5...10 damage. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchantment was removed this way you do +5...10 damage, gain 3 energy and Pious Assault recharges in 4 seconds.

Heart of Holy Flame
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are set on fire for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attack does +5...20 more damage and all adjacent foes to your target take 10...60 holy damage.

Aura of Holy Might
Allegiance Title
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are weakened for 5...10 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attack does 90...100% more damage and all adjacent foes to your target take 50...70 holy damage.

Heart of Fury
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
10e cost
1/4 cast
40s recharge

All adjacent foes take 10...40 holy damage. For 10...20 seconds, you attack 33% faster. When this enchantment ends, all adjacent foes 10...40 holy damage.

Conviction

Save Yourselves

belshazaarswrath · Aug 09, 2010, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

GWD, only has 40% of kd, your VoS kd's 100% for 2 seconds each time on every time you swing your scythe or did you mean on attack skills? bad wording? Its on a 10 second recharge on a class with tons of cover enchantment. You think you're gunna get chilblains spammed every 10 seconds all the time? Again, GDW depends completely on the people you're playing with and sadly most pugs don't optimize their builds and you cant make them. Tell me as a melee how often do you actually get buffed with GDW when doing ZBs?

Attack skill is what I meant. And you only need one chilblains to make you have to put your enchantments back up. And I don't PuG enough to say. Regardless of whether or not it's a common practice doesn't mean it's not a possibility. But yea

On attack skill and regular KD. Is that better? Perhaps modify energy cost/cast time/recharge time as needed. The base idea is still a good one I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

before DWG buff how many people were in DoA, it's like Ursanway revived. You can literally take people with no experience what so ever and finish it. With the other builds you at least needed some experience and skill.

I don't do DoA. I mostly do speedclears in dungeons. But every time I am in DoA for some reason or another it feels like there is some gimmick being run. Also the population there seems to be around the same as before the DwG buff. But I'll admit I don't know from experience about these builds if that wasn't obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

I've learned that if you charge in after the warrior or the minions you've become quite resistant against enchantment stripping. But if you want to play like a warrior and not mind agro then you should play one. if the enchantment casting time was reduce to 1/4 seconds Daze can't do much at all, not that you come across it often. 5 second recharge isn't that long at all, if people can get over restarting assassin combos every time it fails then people can get over 5 seconds recharge. If dervishes were immune to melee counters you'd end up with an aoe toucher minus lifesteal(mysticism heals you when enchantments end doesn't it?) with unlimited energy.

Ok...well then lets leave them in eh?

Haligator · Aug 09, 2010, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

Ok shall we make note that...They announced future changes to dervishs (if I remember properly the changes are in the works)...The mesmer update is done...

The question here is about them mentioning changes to scythes which was previously unmentioned. And does this mean that scythes will be changed with the upcoming Dervish update...I'll forgive you today because your new...but please...do research on whats being said if it seems weird...

I see, the mesmer update is done. My mistake. Honestly, weird is not how it seemed. Thanks.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 09, 2010, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

wounding strike
scythe mastery
Elite Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
4s recharge

If this attack hits, target foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...17 seconds. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchant was removed this way you do +5...25 damage and target foe also suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.

I'd lower the recharge by a second. Good change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Heart of Holy Flame
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are set on fire for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, all adjacent foes to your target take 20...100 holy damage.

Also a good change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Aura of Holy Might
Allegiance Title
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are blinded for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attacks do 20...30% more damage for 5 seconds and all adjacent foes to your target take 80...120 holy damage.

o.0 Holy Christ on a crutch. This needs to be toned down. How bout 30-50 damage? As is you could deal considerably more than 500 damage in 5 seconds with just this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Heart of Fury
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4 cast
40s recharge

For 5...20 seconds, you attack 33% faster. When this enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 10...50 holy damage and are set on fire for 1...3 seconds.

Maintainable! Make it so you can use it for a perma IAS or for enchant juggling.

saint666 · Aug 09, 2010, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I'd lower the recharge by a second. Good change.

Also a good change.

o.0 Holy Christ on a crutch. This needs to be toned down. How bout 30-50 damage? As is you could deal considerably more than 500 damage in 5 seconds with just this.

Maintainable! Make it so you can use it for a perma IAS or for enchant juggling.

Trying to sync up attack recharges with enchantment recharges. If the attack recharges are too low, you can load up on enchantments and unload 400-500 AoE damage quickly with only 1 attack.

Yeh, reworked HoHF, lowered the aoe and added + damage, so its rewarding even if you have nothing to aoe. Lowered the AoE on AoHM, you only do aoe to foes adjacent to your target, it's only about 100 aoe in 5 seconds and it doesn't affect your primary target.

Heart of Fury would be maintainable, if Mysticism reduce dervish enchant recharge and skill recharge reduction caps at 50%, so the recharge would actually be 20 seconds.

reaper with no name · Aug 09, 2010, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I agree. Its not only the critical hits, its also the easily maintainable IAS from critical agility. Just a thought, if Avatars where made almost/maintainable in PvE only. Then Eternal Aura could be turned into a maintainable +33% IAS for Dervs, it would even fit the name. Ive often found in general PvE a non-ZV build Dervish with +33% IAS and a zealous scythe doesnt really have energy trouble, but when the IAS goes so does the energy needed for sustained damage. This is a broad generalization of my own xp in game, I havent vigorously vetted it, (unless master of damage counts as well :P)

As for Sin Vs Derv, I dont mind if the Sin can do ALMOST as much damage with a scythe. But it would be nice if there was a clear victor.

Assassins can get away with losing a PvE slot for IAS because critical strikes is insanely overpowered in PvE. Dervishes can't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

some ideas for a dervish bar with skill balances.

Mysticism-gain 1 energy whenever an enchantment on you cast by you ends for every 2 ranks of mysticism. your dervish enchantments recharge 4% faster for every rank of mysticism.

Asuran Scan

wounding strike
scythe mastery
Elite Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
4s recharge

If this attack hits, target foe suffers from Bleeding for 5...17 seconds. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchant was removed this way you do +5...25 damage and target foe also suffers from a Deep Wound for 5...17 seconds.

Pious Assault
scythe mastery
Scythe Attack
5e cost
3/4s activation
12s recharge

You deal +5...10 damage. You lose 1 dervish enchantment if this attack hits. If a dervish enchantment was removed this way you do +5...10 damage, gain 5 energy and Pious Assault recharges in 4 seconds.

Heart of Holy Flame
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are set on fire for 1...5 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attack does +5...20 more damage and all adjacent foes to your target take 20...90 holy damage.

Aura of Holy Might
Allegiance Title
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4s cast
10s recharge

All adjacent foes are blinded for 3...6 seconds. For 10 seconds this enchantment does nothing. If this enchantment was removed by a dervish attack, your attacks do 20...30% more damage for 5 seconds and all adjacent foes to your target take 90...100 holy damage.

Heart of Fury
Mysticism
Enchantment Spell
5e cost
1/4 cast
40s recharge

For 5...20 seconds, you attack 33% faster. When this enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 10...50 holy damage and are set on fire for 1...3 seconds.

Conviction

Save Yourselves

I like your wounding strike (though I doubt that it would really be enough without some serious improvements in dervish energy management).

At first, I wasn't sure what to think about your AoHM change. But I've since decided that it's definitely overpowered, and as a result is probably exactly what the dervish needs (not easily abused by secondaries due to your Mysticism idea, a worthwhile AoE, etc). The blind should probably be removed, though. There's no need for that.

Your Mysticism change (with corresponding increases in recharges for dervish skills) is most likely what Anet will do with the attribute, if I had to guess. It's what they did with FC, and it's similar to what they did with SP.

Thumbs up on the Heart of Holy Flame (though again, can't say I'm sure it would do any good).

Not sure Pious Assault should give energy. It might open up potential for secondary abuse. Otherwise, I'm happy with that.

Your Heart of Fury seems okay to me, if indeed it is maintainable at higher mysticism (too tired for math right now).

saint666 · Aug 09, 2010, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I like your wounding strike (though I doubt that it would really be enough without some serious improvements in dervish energy management).

At first, I wasn't sure what to think about your AoHM change. But I've since decided that it's definitely overpowered, and as a result is probably exactly what the dervish needs (not easily abused by secondaries due to your Mysticism idea, a worthwhile AoE, etc). The blind should probably be removed, though. There's no need for that.

Your Mysticism change (with corresponding increases in recharges for dervish skills) is most likely what Anet will do with the attribute, if I had to guess. It's what they did with FC, and it's similar to what they did with SP.

Thumbs up on the Heart of Holy Flame (though again, can't say I'm sure it would do any good).

Not sure Pious Assault should give energy. It might open up potential for secondary abuse. Otherwise, I'm happy with that.

Your Heart of Fury seems okay to me, if indeed it is maintainable at higher mysticism (too tired for math right now).

The energy on pious assault really depends if mysticism is able to generate enough energy for maintained attacks. With it giving 1 energy every 2 ranks you should gain 7 energy at rank 14 every time you strip an enchantment, so 2 extra energy+zealous and natural energy regeneration to go towards attack spamming. If mysticism works too well it might have to be capped at +6 or 7 energy. The energy gain can be toned down to 3 instead of 5 for pious assault, but in the end no one else can spam enchantments as much as dervishes can. With a zealous scythe and stripping an enchantment with wounding strike you're end up only paying 2 energy for it, so it should be manageable.

Well if you think of Heart of Holy Flame as an attack skill that does +5..20 damage with a nice aoe on a 5 second cooldown, and gives you extra energy it might make a little more sense. And AoHM functions pretty much the same way just with the recharge time changed, and the AoE jacked, enchantment juggling has to be somewhat worthwhile doesn't it. The blind is not necessary, dealing massive damage while having 90% damage reduce from melee is a bit too much.

Also the skills for the different attribute lines should probably be redistributed. Offensive/pbaoe enchantments should be relocated into Mysticism, while Earth prayers should focus on protection and healing for tanking. Wind prayers should deal with snaring/anti snaring, debuffing and mobility for running/utility. That way attribute points won't be spread too thin, if tanking or dpsing is all you want to do.

Nechrond · Aug 09, 2010, 07:12 AM // 07:12

How about this:
Balthazar's Rage (because nobody really uses it anyway)
10 energy, .75 cast time, 15 recharge
Your next attack skill strikes twice. x..y.z % chance to auto-apply this when you hit a foe.

It would fuel Mysticism, have synergy with scythes because they hit multiple foes, and would be interesting for secondaries - but not extremely powerful. A primary Dervish, however, if doing what he's supposed to do (diving into battle and hitting 3 foes with every sweep) would be dealing a ton of damage and have brilliant energy management.

Beomagi · Aug 09, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

I don't think the skills need more powerful effects, so much as the mysticism line itself.

The life gain from losing an enchantment is laughable.

Really when the 70 AR dervish meets the level 30 elemental boss with some shatter enchantment mesmer friends, what does he call them? Daddy?

The reward for losing an enchantment doesn't outweigh the penalty - so how to make it?

Is energy really that much of an issue? - ok give it a minor boost for losing enchantments.

IMO armor and damage is the biggest issue.

Damage IS good, but you pretty much have to stack aura of holy might with scan/BuH. Problem with that is it's still somewhat clumsy, and it's slowing you down. Those with nightfall only or nightfall + prophecies don't gain ANY benefit.

Why not for each enchantments removed, the dervish gains <mysticism attribute> armor for const/myst/other seconds?

As far as the statement goes - when you're juggling enchantments, you're wasting time you could be swinging, well, you're right. Why not add bonus damage for doing this? Perhaps IAS for the next x attacks, where x is the number of enchantments lost? in this way, it could be said the enchanting really does "fuel" their attacks. Seriously, a passive gain to 1 attack per enchantment won't be overkill, but would help make up the time for casting that enchantment.

Dervish forms are a trite waste. I'm sorry, but if dervish forms are a part of being a dervish, why oh why the insane recharge? You MUST take 2 skills to maintain it. They really should be more viable.

Franksalot · Aug 16, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haligator

Wow. One page of this thread was on topic and the rest just speculation. To answer the original question, the text of the developer post clearly states that neither Scythes nor Dervishes will receive nerfs or buffs in any way in the Mesmer patch, or whatever it is that they are working on. This looks like a troll thread to me. The OP quote left out the "NOT" in the phrase he quoted.

Wasn't trolling just a general mistake on my side sorry, but still i'm getting inpatient i had expected at least some previews by now.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 16, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franksalot

Wasn't trolling just a general mistake on my side sorry, but still i'm getting inpatient i had expected at least some previews by now.

Months of waiting are most likely in store.

Franksalot · Aug 16, 2010, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Months of waiting are most likely in store.

well... as with GW2 i'd rather wait and them get it right then they rush and mess everything up, but tbh knowing anet a fair few things will get overbuffed then we'll see a series of debuff to fix em as with mesmers atm.

Lillium · Aug 16, 2010, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

Some ideas for a dervish bar with skill balances.

Mysticism - For ranks in Mysticism gain energy whenever an enchantment on you cast by you ends, you gain 2 energy at ranks 4 and above, 4 energy at ranks 7 and above, 6 energy at 10 ranks above, and 8 energy at ranks 13 and above. In PvE, each rank of Mysticism decreases the recharge time for your Dervish enchantments by 4% (maximum 50%).

...
etc (too long for full quote)

I don't like any of these ideas, they're all... bad. Mysticism has a really great synergy with other party members using enchants (specifically on you), and loosing that synergy would not promote thoughts of full party tactics. In which case what is the point of a party based game?
I also think reduced recharges for a second class that has nothing to do with casting time and recharging is completely unfitting. Mesmer at least had a few skills that reduced recharge times before the update, so it was in fact still within their natural domain of abilities.
Yes, Dervish has Eternal Aura, but that does not reduce recharge times. It simply removes them from anything currently recharging. This is completely different. For example, Eternal Aura will counter a Power Block or Diversion with good timing while reduced recharge times will not counter either.

Specifying removal by a dervish attack is pushing only one form of build, that being relying around scythe attacks, when only half of the dervish enchantment removals are through attacks.
Pious Assault looks closer to the release use of the skill... So what, you want a revert? And you want to change other skills to force it to be useful where it (obviously) is not currently? No thank you.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 16, 2010, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franksalot

well... as with GW2 i'd rather wait and them get it right then they rush and mess everything up, but tbh knowing anet a fair few things will get overbuffed then we'll see a series of debuff to fix em as with mesmers atm.

Well the mesmer update was pretty good. It could have been a whole hell of a lot worse. They are just not doing that well in toning things down. But overall that was a pretty good skill update. If Dervs get that I'd be more than happy.